Ten dollars to mail a badge, really?
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Posted by buffythecatslayer
#101

It's been $10 for years. This isn't a new cost, nor do I expect it to go up like you unreasonably suggested. I take it as a "Processing and Handling" fee more than "Shipping" fee. Lots of extra work must go into sending out all of those packets of badges and tickets.

Pretty much the same work goes into producing the packets for will-call or for shipping.  Everything gets put in envelopes for the recipients.  For shipping, it's all going to the same place; for will-call, there could be multiple envelopes for different attendees if one person bought badges/tickets for other people.

USPS charges $6-7 for the Priority Mail shipping, so the $10 is mostly consumed by that, not by Gen Con charging a "processing fee".

Posted by brotherbock
#102

When a company like Gen Con is going to mail out thousands of pieces of mail, it costs them more than the shipping. It's not like they have someone in the office licking stamps and hand writing addresses. I would guess they send it all to a mailing service. This is a company that takes the envelopes and a spreadsheet of names/addys and prints all the envelopes, plus the indicia (the 'postage paid' coded stamp). Then someone is taking those envelopes and stuffing them with the tickets. The envelope stuffing is going to cost the same either way, but the printing of those envelopes for mailing, by a mailing service, will cost more than sticking a label with just a name on it for Will-Call.

tl/dr: 'shipping and handling' charges are real things.

Posted by buffythecatslayer
#103

They do most of it in-house.  Back in May they were looking for temp employees to do the work.

Posted by austicke brotherbock
#104

brotherbock wrote:It's not like they have someone in the office licking stamps and hand writing addresses. I would guess they send it all to a mailing service.

Nope, they do it in-house. You're right that they don't lick stamps and hand write addresses though.

EDIT: Beat me to it, buffythecatslayer! :)

_____________________________________
Alec Usticke, Fans of Gen Con Facebook Group

Posted by brotherbock buffythecatslayer
#105

buffythecatslayer wrote:
They do most of it in-house.  Back in May they were looking for temp employees to do the work.

They are printing the indicia themselves? Or are they using actual stamps? The latter would be really surprising. The former would seem honestly like it would cost more. Now you're paying for printer toner and such in a much less efficient system than a mailing service would have.

Honestly, if they are addressing and printing thousands of envelopes in-house...their costs are likely higher than using a mailing service. It's just that those costs are shifted to office supplies and temps. Stuffing envelopes in-house makes sense, you don't want to have the mailing service responsible for putting the right tickets in the right envelopes. But the printing and addressing in-house...I'd be surprised if they are saving money that way, or even breaking even compared to the cost of a mailing service.

@GenCon: look into mailing services, lol

Posted by nascragman
#106

Yeah, I was at the post office yesterday, and I saw the priority mail cost for the size envelope used by Gen Con listed as 7.95.  So $2.05 for Gen Con's portion of the handling and addressing doesn't seem terribly out of line.

Posted by austicke brotherbock
#107

brotherbock wrote:They are printing the indicia themselves? Or are they using actual stamps?

What company doesn't have access to mail sort software and a postage meter? Oy.

Posted by brotherbock austicke
#108

austicke wrote:
brotherbock wrote:They are printing the indicia themselves? Or are they using actual stamps?

What company doesn't have access to mail sort software and a postage meter? Oy.

They probably do (the actual stamps question was more of a joke...hopefully). But that is still not as efficient as a company who's entire purpose is doing exactly that--building mass mailing jobs.

Posted by austicke brotherbock
#109

brotherbock wrote:They probably do (the actual stamps question was more of a joke...hopefully). But that is still not as efficient as a company who's entire purpose is doing exactly that--building mass mailing jobs.

And those companies charge for the service. If it’s less expensive for Gen Con to do it themselves, they’d be foolish to use the more expensive outsourced option.

It seems silly to question how Gen Con mails their packages or assume you know a secret, better method of which they’re unaware.

Posted by brotherbock austicke
#110

austicke wrote:
brotherbock wrote:They probably do (the actual stamps question was more of a joke...hopefully). But that is still not as efficient as a company who's entire purpose is doing exactly that--building mass mailing jobs.

And those companies charge for the service. If it’s less expensive for Gen Con to do it themselves, they’d be foolish to use the more expensive outsourced option.It seems silly to question how Gen Con mails their packages or assume you know a secret, better method of which they’re unaware.

What I'm saying is that I would be surprised if GC doing it in-house is actually cheaper. That's what I said pretty clearly above. Mailer service companies charge--that was my original point--but doing it in-house has its own costs (supplies and manpower). Is it impossible that it's cheaper? Of course not. But there are basic principles at play. It costs more for an individual to print on a home printer than it does to go to a print shop, for example. The cost disparity can drop for a larger company, but they are still usually higher than contracting with a company that specializes in these sort of jobs. That's why these companies exist, and why large banks, insurance companies, and similar companies use them. These companies have thousands of personalized mailings that all go out at the same time, and the large companies go through mailing service companies. They don't do that because it's generally more expensive.

So yes, they would be foolish to use the more expensive option. And maybe in-house is cheaper for them. In my experience (working at a print shop for several years not too long ago), the mailing services are cheaper than in-house. This is not some 'secret', it's just what I learned about this issue.

So, to clarify my points:

1) Gen Con's shipping charge is a combination of the postal costs, plus the very real costs of 'handling' these items.
2) Those handling costs I would expect to be lower with an outside service, but would still seem to justify the $10 charge to us.
3) The $10 charge is definitely justified if GC is using what I would expect to be the more expensive method of doing it all in-house.

Posted by mikeboozer
#111

We do it in house to ensure the right people get the right badges and tickets.

Packets must be assembled with many different variables in play.
There are too many things that can go wrong if this is done outside the company without a huge amount of oversight. Which increases the expense.
Envelopes are not sealed until there is a QC process to make sure each packet is completed correctly and the 20 John Smith's each get exactly what they ordered.

This process would be prohibitively expensive given these steps, and the possibility of error would go up as well if done outside.

However we are certainly open to hearing about alternatives!

Mike Boozer
Customer Service & Event Team Manager
Gen Con LLC

Posted by brotherbock mikeboozer
#112

mikeboozer wrote:
We do it in house to ensure the right people get the right badges and tickets.
Packets must be assembled with many different variables in play.
There are too many things that can go wrong if this is done outside the company without a huge amount of oversight. Which increases the expense.
Envelopes are not sealed until there is a QC process to make sure each packet is completed correctly and the 20 John Smith's each get exactly what they ordered.
This process would be prohibitively expensive given these steps, and the possibility of error would go up as well if done outside.
However we are certainly open to hearing about alternatives!
Mike Boozer
Customer Service & Event Team Manager
Gen Con LLC

I figured the packets would be assembled in house, and for those exact reasons. The question I was asking was about in-house printing. The mailing service companies I am familiar with will do any part or all parts of a job, from printing the envelopes, to stuffing them to putting them in the mail. Even just printing thousands of envelopes is big. Sending the company a spreadsheet of names and addys and letting them mail merge and print, then you get the envelopes back, typically saves companies a bunch of money. Then you stuff the printed envelopes, which can be printed with indicia by the mailing service company too, and off they go.

For companies that aren't themselves printing companies, it can save some $.

Edit: for example, I don't know anything about them, but a Google turned up Alpha Graphics in Seattle. I don't know your costs, but if you factor in printer toner and labor, I'd be willing to bet their envelope printing costs would be lower than in-house.

Posted by andrewj.rager
#113

It sounds to me that e-ticketing will solve a lot of these "problems"

"John Smith Badge Number: XXXXXXXXX ?"

"Yup, that's me!" *Shows ID for confirmation*

"OK here's your badge all tickets are loaded on the badge!"

"Great thanks!"

Of course there is more in a packet, than just your badge and tickets, but this seems like it would streamline the process more. I am hopeful with the good reception I heard about the wifi this year that we are close to 100% e-tickets for Gen Con. And with the new Gen Con app, you should be able to confirm all your events are correctly loaded on your badge.

The App and wifi in the ICC/LOS seem to be a huge step in the right direction towards bringing Gen Con into the digital age of the 2020s. lol

Posted by traveller
#114

So, lets lay a few things out for people here who may not understand bulk printing/mailing.


  • USPS flat rate envelopes are 7.95 (i believe its 6.95 in bulk, lets assume Gencon has that rate).
  • Envelopes have an additional charge for tracking/signature required.
  • There are 5 items for each envelope (badge, lanyard, tickets, receipt and shipping label.
  • Tickets and shipping labels require special printers and/or special paper.
  • The different items, tickets, badges, lanyards and envelope preclude the use of automated machines.

So, the bulk of the 10 fee is used in the cost of the envelope and signature/tracking.  e-Tickets, using a print house, these really won't make a difference in cost (except possibly to make the costs go up).  

Making badges, matching tickets to badges and stuffing an envelope will happen no matter if you ship them or not.  The fee covers the cost of shipping and is pretty reasonable.

Posted by mikeboozer brotherbock
#115

brotherbock wrote:
mikeboozer wrote:
We do it in house to ensure the right people get the right badges and tickets.
Packets must be assembled with many different variables in play.
There are too many things that can go wrong if this is done outside the company without a huge amount of oversight. Which increases the expense.
Envelopes are not sealed until there is a QC process to make sure each packet is completed correctly and the 20 John Smith's each get exactly what they ordered.
This process would be prohibitively expensive given these steps, and the possibility of error would go up as well if done outside.
However we are certainly open to hearing about alternatives!
Mike Boozer
Customer Service & Event Team Manager
Gen Con LLC

I figured the packets would be assembled in house, and for those exact reasons. The question I was asking was about in-house printing. The mailing service companies I am familiar with will do any part or all parts of a job, from printing the envelopes, to stuffing them to putting them in the mail. Even just printing thousands of envelopes is big. Sending the company a spreadsheet of names and addys and letting them mail merge and print, then you get the envelopes back, typically saves companies a bunch of money. Then you stuff the printed envelopes, which can be printed with indicia by the mailing service company too, and off they go.For companies that aren't themselves printing companies, it can save some $.
Edit: for example, I don't know anything about them, but a Google turned up Alpha Graphics in Seattle. I don't know your costs, but if you factor in printer toner and labor, I'd be willing to bet their envelope printing costs would be lower than in-house.

We are not just stuffing printed envelopes. There are different types of envelopes, and different types of printing and assembling instructions for all phases. There are GM, Exhibitor, Press. Trade Day, Artist, Author, VIG packets. The list goes on. We actually have our own system for this. There is no way that a mailing service is less expensive when you factor in the errors that would happen when trying to explain the system to them. It would cost us at the convention in man power and headaches for our attendees. 

Many of our challenges will indeed be solved once we move to e-ticketing completely. Also, for you.
No shut down on ticket refunds between ship to me date and the convention. Your schedule will not be blocked because you will be able to refund that ticket! You can get that new event! No packets at Will Call with just tickets in them. You can't lose your tickets! 

Mike

Posted by andrewj.rager mikeboozer
#116

mikeboozer wrote:
brotherbock wrote:
mikeboozer wrote:
We do it in house to ensure the right people get the right badges and tickets.
Packets must be assembled with many different variables in play.
There are too many things that can go wrong if this is done outside the company without a huge amount of oversight. Which increases the expense.
Envelopes are not sealed until there is a QC process to make sure each packet is completed correctly and the 20 John Smith's each get exactly what they ordered.
This process would be prohibitively expensive given these steps, and the possibility of error would go up as well if done outside.
However we are certainly open to hearing about alternatives!
Mike Boozer
Customer Service & Event Team Manager
Gen Con LLC

I figured the packets would be assembled in house, and for those exact reasons. The question I was asking was about in-house printing. The mailing service companies I am familiar with will do any part or all parts of a job, from printing the envelopes, to stuffing them to putting them in the mail. Even just printing thousands of envelopes is big. Sending the company a spreadsheet of names and addys and letting them mail merge and print, then you get the envelopes back, typically saves companies a bunch of money. Then you stuff the printed envelopes, which can be printed with indicia by the mailing service company too, and off they go.For companies that aren't themselves printing companies, it can save some $.
Edit: for example, I don't know anything about them, but a Google turned up Alpha Graphics in Seattle. I don't know your costs, but if you factor in printer toner and labor, I'd be willing to bet their envelope printing costs would be lower than in-house.

We are not just stuffing printed envelopes. There are different types of envelopes, and different types of printing and assembling instructions for all phases. There are GM, Exhibitor, Press. Trade Day, Artist, Author, VIG packets. The list goes on. We actually have our own system for this. There is no way that a mailing service is less expensive when you factor in the errors that would happen when trying to explain the system to them. It would cost us at the convention in man power and headaches for our attendees. Many of our challenges will indeed be solved once we move to e-ticketing completely. Also, for you.
No shut down on ticket refunds between ship to me date and the convention. Your schedule will not be blocked because you will be able to refund that ticket! You can get that new event! No packets at Will Call with just tickets in them. You can't lose your tickets! 
Mike

I'm really excited for e-tickets. I know change is hard for some people, but its going to be best for the Gen Con staff and best for us as attendees.

Thanks for the update as always Mike! Is it Aug 2020 yet?

Posted by squirecam andrewj.rager
#117

andrewj.rager wrote:
mikeboozer wrote:
brotherbock wrote:
mikeboozer wrote:
We do it in house to ensure the right people get the right badges and tickets.
Packets must be assembled with many different variables in play.
There are too many things that can go wrong if this is done outside the company without a huge amount of oversight. Which increases the expense.
Envelopes are not sealed until there is a QC process to make sure each packet is completed correctly and the 20 John Smith's each get exactly what they ordered.
This process would be prohibitively expensive given these steps, and the possibility of error would go up as well if done outside.
However we are certainly open to hearing about alternatives!
Mike Boozer
Customer Service & Event Team Manager
Gen Con LLC

I figured the packets would be assembled in house, and for those exact reasons. The question I was asking was about in-house printing. The mailing service companies I am familiar with will do any part or all parts of a job, from printing the envelopes, to stuffing them to putting them in the mail. Even just printing thousands of envelopes is big. Sending the company a spreadsheet of names and addys and letting them mail merge and print, then you get the envelopes back, typically saves companies a bunch of money. Then you stuff the printed envelopes, which can be printed with indicia by the mailing service company too, and off they go.For companies that aren't themselves printing companies, it can save some $.
Edit: for example, I don't know anything about them, but a Google turned up Alpha Graphics in Seattle. I don't know your costs, but if you factor in printer toner and labor, I'd be willing to bet their envelope printing costs would be lower than in-house.

We are not just stuffing printed envelopes. There are different types of envelopes, and different types of printing and assembling instructions for all phases. There are GM, Exhibitor, Press. Trade Day, Artist, Author, VIG packets. The list goes on. We actually have our own system for this. There is no way that a mailing service is less expensive when you factor in the errors that would happen when trying to explain the system to them. It would cost us at the convention in man power and headaches for our attendees. Many of our challenges will indeed be solved once we move to e-ticketing completely. Also, for you.
No shut down on ticket refunds between ship to me date and the convention. Your schedule will not be blocked because you will be able to refund that ticket! You can get that new event! No packets at Will Call with just tickets in them. You can't lose your tickets! 
Mike

I'm really excited for e-tickets. I know change is hard for some people, but its going to be best for the Gen Con staff and best for us as attendees.Thanks for the update as always Mike! Is it Aug 2020 yet?
Call me crazy.....

But with all e-tickets, what happens in a wifi outage situation?

Posted by buffythecatslayer
#118

But with all e-tickets, what happens in a wifi outage situation?

The way their app is set up, the host does not need a connection to scan the badges.  He needs to download the events & attendees at some point, then will need a connection to upload the scanned badges later.  The only issue would be for people who bought tickets just before the event started, or who want to use the new system of paying right at the event.  The Wi-Fi was pretty solid this year, so the issues should be minimal.

Posted by kd8esu buffythecatslayer
#119

buffythecatslayer wrote:
But with all e-tickets, what happens in a wifi outage situation?

The way their app is set up, the host does not need a connection to scan the badges.  He needs to download the events & attendees at some point, then will need a connection to upload the scanned badges later.  The only issue would be for people who bought tickets just before the event started, or who want to use the new system of paying right at the event.  The Wi-Fi was pretty solid this year, so the issues should be minimal.

Not only that, but if you have a stable 4g/5g connection (like I do), that is another method to download/upload all the data needed.
Granted, not everyone has that kind of connection on their mobile devices, but it is another method for hosts to use (not to mention if someone makes a mobile hot spot).

Now, the question is if their servers that handle the ticketing are going to be working at prime speed or are going to deliver several-hour delays before sending information through like it did a few times this year.

Posted by traveller kd8esu
#120

kd8esu wrote:
buffythecatslayer wrote:
But with all e-tickets, what happens in a wifi outage situation?

The way their app is set up, the host does not need a connection to scan the badges.  He needs to download the events & attendees at some point, then will need a connection to upload the scanned badges later.  The only issue would be for people who bought tickets just before the event started, or who want to use the new system of paying right at the event.  The Wi-Fi was pretty solid this year, so the issues should be minimal.
Not only that, but if you have a stable 4g/5g connection (like I do), that is another method to download/upload all the data needed.
Granted, not everyone has that kind of connection on their mobile devices, but it is another method for hosts to use (not to mention if someone makes a mobile hot spot).Now, the question is if their servers that handle the ticketing are going to be working at prime speed or are going to deliver several-hour delays before sending information through like it did a few times this year.

I would imagine this is behind the slow, controlled rollout of the e-tickets.  It is a technology rollout not only on the server side, but on judge side as well.  From the server side, you are dealing with scaling to handle average as well as surge capacity.  On the client side you have connection (wifi/cellular) as well as power, what is a GM to do if their phone/tablet/backup battery dies....

There were some 2k e-ticket events this year, not much in comparison to 19k events in total but still its a good start.  There are going to be growing pains with the technology and given the over-reaction to any kind of customer service issue that happens with an event of this size I would rather see this take its time.  I was there during the first computer ticket system startup, it was unpleasant.  

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