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Posted by njseahawksfan gencon322198

gencon322198 wrote:
father bloodlust wrote:
I think it's juuuuust a bit early to call the possibility of hitting the cap proof that GenCon has outgrown Indy.
1. It hasn't hit the cap yet; it's just on course to do so.
2. This is GenCon #50; of course it's going to break attendance records.
Maybe if we actually do hit the cap, and do so for two or three years in a row, then we can start calling it too big for Indy.
I agree that 2017 attendance could be an aberration, but maybe it's not given the doubling of attendance in 5 years.The problem is that GC contracts out 5ish years in advance.  

Gencon has not come *close* to doubling in attendance over the last five years.  Attendance in 2012 was 41000.  Attendance last year was 60,819.   If we're going to have a debate, we should at least stick to facts.

Posted by armadilloal

It did, however, double over the five years between 2010 (30,046) and 2015 (61,423), as well as 2009-2014.  It may not have doubled within those give years specifically, but given that we're only two years removed from an actual doubling, I don't think it's too hyperbolous to go with that fact.

Posted by gencon322198 njseahawksfan

njseahawksfan wrote:
gencon322198 wrote:
father bloodlust wrote:
I think it's juuuuust a bit early to call the possibility of hitting the cap proof that GenCon has outgrown Indy.
1. It hasn't hit the cap yet; it's just on course to do so.
2. This is GenCon #50; of course it's going to break attendance records.
Maybe if we actually do hit the cap, and do so for two or three years in a row, then we can start calling it too big for Indy.
I agree that 2017 attendance could be an aberration, but maybe it's not given the doubling of attendance in 5 years.The problem is that GC contracts out 5ish years in advance.  

Gencon has not come *close* to doubling in attendance over the last five years.  Attendance in 2012 was 41000.  Attendance last year was 60,819.   If we're going to have a debate, we should at least stick to facts.
Reread my post which you quoted. I didn't say "last 5 years".  I said "in 5 years", to which I'm obviously referring 30k doubling to 60k.  Fact, as requested.

Posted by mhayward1978 gencon322198

gencon322198 wrote:
njseahawksfan wrote:
gencon322198 wrote:
father bloodlust wrote:
I think it's juuuuust a bit early to call the possibility of hitting the cap proof that GenCon has outgrown Indy.
1. It hasn't hit the cap yet; it's just on course to do so.
2. This is GenCon #50; of course it's going to break attendance records.
Maybe if we actually do hit the cap, and do so for two or three years in a row, then we can start calling it too big for Indy.
I agree that 2017 attendance could be an aberration, but maybe it's not given the doubling of attendance in 5 years.The problem is that GC contracts out 5ish years in advance.  

Gencon has not come *close* to doubling in attendance over the last five years.  Attendance in 2012 was 41000.  Attendance last year was 60,819.   If we're going to have a debate, we should at least stick to facts.
Reread my post which you quoted. I didn't say "last 5 years".  I said "in 5 years", to which I'm obviously referring 30k doubling to 60k.  Fact, as requested.

Wow!  I didn't know language worked like that.  Let me try...

I agree that my current bank account balance could be an aberration, but maybe it's not given the quadrupling of my balance in 3 months.

Now it's "a fact" that I'm "obviously referring" to my bank account growing in the next 3 months, and further it's apparently rational to believe this will come to pass!

Time to sit back and wait for the cash to roll in!  
 

Posted by gencon322198

Deleted by user.

Posted by gencon322198

Some people might not know the GC attendance facts, so here are some references:

August 2010 - 30,046
August 2011 - 36,733
August 2012 - 41,000+
August 2013 - 49,058
August 2014 - 56,614
August 2015 - 61,423
August 2016 - 60,819

Source: Wikipedia for Gencon

Therefore, over the 5 years period August 2010 through August 2015, attendance more than doubled.  Don't take my word for it; read it from Gencon's own words:

"Since 2010, Gen Con has more than doubled in attendance." (From 2015 article)

Source: http://www.gencon.com/press/2015postshow

Taking into account 2016 attendance, accurate statements also include:

"GC attendance more than doubled over the most recent 6 year period from 30,046 to 60,819."

"GC attendance grew by 66% over the most recent 5 year period from 36,733 to 60,819."

No matter how you choose to slice it, GC has recently grown substantially.  Let's get back to the discussion of solutions to the growing pains we're experiencing.

Posted by gencon322198 njseahawksfan

njseahawksfan wrote:Gencon has not come *close* to doubling in attendance over the last five years.  Attendance in 2012 was 41000.  Attendance last year was 60,819.   If we're going to have a debate, we should at least stick to facts.
For the record, there's a flaw in your figures.  41k and 61k represent a four year period of time, not a five year span of time.  You should replace 41k with 37k.

I'm sorry for the imprecision of my original statement that you critiqued.  Please see my post immediately above which is 100% precise and sourced so we can get back to fact based discussion.

Posted by gencon322198 mhayward1978

mhayward1978 wrote:Now it's "a fact" that I'm "obviously referring" 
 
My apologies Sir or Madam.  What is obvious to some people may not be obvious to everyone.  See my post two above for complete documentation and evidence of my assertion that attendance doubled.

Posted by stiehle gencon322198

gencon322198 wrote:
njseahawksfan wrote:Gencon has not come *close* to doubling in attendance over the last five years.  Attendance in 2012 was 41000.  Attendance last year was 60,819.   If we're going to have a debate, we should at least stick to facts.
For the record, there's a flaw in your figures.  41k and 61k represent a four year period of time, not a five year span of time.  You should replace 41k with 37k.I'm sorry for the imprecision of my original statement that you critiqued.  Please see my post immediately above which is 100% precise and sourced so we can get back to fact based discussion.

Maybe I'm not understanding your argument...  Given the list you have posted for annual attendance, njseahawks doesn't appear to be wrong.  Attendance of 41k in 2012 rises to nearly 61k in 2016...  Isn't that a five year span?  2012, 2013, 2014, 2015 & 2016?  And doubling 41k from 2012 means a total of 82k, which is nearly 20k more than the actual total of 61k in 2016.

Though I'm definitely not great in the subject of math, so maybe I'm missing something.  Still, it is very obvious that the attendance IS on the rise.  The question is whether or not it's going to continue to rise as it has been during the 7 year span you've listed out.

Personally, I think it's going to start tapering off.  This seems to be indicated by the 2015 and 2016 totals, anyway.  Is that two-year span an aberration?  Perhaps.  Time will tell, (and this year being the 50th anniversary might be an aberration in itself) and as Indianapolis has a contract with GenCon giving them at least a few more years (I can't recall the exact year, but I know it's somewhere on this forum), it does sound a bit too soon to start crying out that the sky is falling.

Posted by stiehle stiehle

My bad... double posted...

Posted by gencon322198

Happy to explain.

It's a matter of period of time rather than data points.  For a period of time of X years, you need X+1 data points.  Let me walk through it: 

To get 1 year period growth, you would compare 61,423 to 60,819. 

To get 2 year period growth, you would compare 56,614 to 60,819. 

To get 3 year period growth, you would compare 49,058 to 60,819. 

To get 4 year period growth, you would compare 41,000 to 60,819. 

To get 5 year period growth, you would compare 36,733 to 60,819. 

Another way to look at it is if you want a 5 year period of time, ending on August 2016, then you would have to go to the date August 2011 to be a 5 year period.  This is how Gencon did it in the article quoted above.

Posted by gencon322198 stiehle

stiehle wrote:

[/forums/22-general-info-2017/topics/6928-housing-worst-ever?page=15#31501ined]Still, it is very obvious that the attendance IS on the rise.  The question is whether or not it's going to continue to rise as it has been during the 7 year span you've listed out.[/url]Personally, I think it's going to start tapering off.  This seems to be indicated by the 2015 and 2016 totals, anyway.  Is that two-year span an aberration?  Perhaps.  Time will tell, (and this year being the 50th anniversary might be an aberration in itself) and as Indianapolis has a contract with GenCon giving them at least a few more years (I can't recall the exact year, but I know it's somewhere on this forum), it does sound a bit too soon to start crying out that the sky is falling.

I don't think the sky is falling, but I do think we should be having the discussion, particularly because GC contracts out so far in advance with Indy that they could lock themselves into a very bad multi year situation if attendance doesn't fall back.

Also I think it is helpful to suggest solutions for the short term in Indy such as shuttle buses, parking (like 3 more Gate Ten-like lots), and other improved transportation options in the city.

Posted by stiehle

Ah!  OK, I can see how that makes sense.  I definitely agree a mass transportation system would be ideal for a convention such as this.  Then outlier hotels wouldn't be such an issue - or not as much, anyway.  It seems, based on conversations in this thread and others, whether GenCon would want to move away from a central U.S. city to either the east coast or the west coast.  Chicago is another obvious central U.S. location, but I've seen some issues regarding hotels and convention space downtown.

Dallas, TX might be a viable alternative, it being fairly centrally located (if a bit south) and maybe St. Louis.  If they moved east I'd love for them to come to D.C. or rather to an area near D.C. called National Harbor.  It's a beautiful area with convention space and hotels - though I don't know enough about the figures to say whether it could satisfy GenCon requirements or not.

Another issue would be how 'safe' the downtown areas are in these cities.  I know from experience that there are some downtown areas I'd wish to avoid in some of the larger cities.  From what I've read, Indianapolis has a pretty nice downtown.

Posted by aaronmlopez stiehle

stiehle wrote:
... I definitely agree a mass transportation system would be ideal for a convention such as this.  Then outlier hotels wouldn't be such an issue - or not as much, anyway....

Yes... A mass transportation system would be ideal, but I don't see Indianapolis implementing one that would only be used for one or two weekends per year. It would not be economical for them to ad mass transportation that will do nothing but cost the city more than it brings in on an annual basis.

I would think that Indianapolis would contract a private transport company with around 25 to 100 of their own vehicles to handle transportation during the times it is needed. Any private company could use their services at multiple conventions bringing vehicles as needed. The city could pay the company a fee, then the company could charge passengers a fee to ride to/from the convention. All in all, this would cost the city much less and not leave vehicles sit around unused for the majority of the year. (I would actually be shocked if there is no company that does this type of thing... especially with the number of conventions around the country.)

Posted by braewe

I still don't think this is the answer. I mean, it would make it less worrisome, I guess, since you wouldn't need to hassle with parking, but with mass transit vs car....it's more handy with a car. I can leave either place when /I/ want to leave. 

The answer is moar bigger hotels right downtown. We are staying slightly farther out this year--only a couple miles--and the hotel itself has a free shuttle--but it's at certain times and I am firmly convinced I will not like it as compared to the Embassy, Westin or the other hotels we've stayed at.

I just like being right up close and convenient. Yes, yes, we have a friend staying close, yesyes, it'll be our unofficial group's HQ for dropping off stuff and even napping, but. I like having MY OWN.

 

Posted by tdb

This will be the 15th consecutive year that I have attended Gencon without having a downtown hotel room. 

You see, I live about 25 miles away from downtown, and I just can't justify spending an extra grand or so for a room at a connected hotel, even if one were available.  So I drive in every morning.  It's admittedly not as convenient as a connected hotel would be, but it isn't the end of the world.

No matter how nice it might be, there's not going to be enough hotel rooms for everyone downtown.  The answer is to level up the transportation options.  The Gate Ten parking is a nice start, but I think shuttle buses would be better still.  They had them for a couple years, and then stopped, but I never heard the reason.  Was it low ridership, or too many customer complaints, or something else?

Posted by gencon322198 tdb

tdb wrote:
The answer is to level up the transportation options.  The Gate Ten parking is a nice start, but I think shuttle buses would be better still.  They had them for a couple years, and then stopped, but I never heard the reason.  Was it low ridership, or too many customer complaints, or something else?
Agreed.  I remember the shuttles getting a lot of complaints, particularly after big events let out but also overall, so I think that's why the shuttles were scuttled.

My guess is that there weren't enough shuttles running and not enough lines running, thus long waiting lines, not enough profit for the shuttle company, and overall a poor experience for GC, riders, and the shuttle company.

But I have to believe that a carefully constructed shuttle program that hits all the hotels, runs frequent routes, has enough shuttles, and is priced appropriately (not too low so that it can pay for the needed volume) could work especially given the higher attendance now versus the prior time it was tried.

Posted by squirecam tdb

tdb wrote:
This will be the 15th consecutive year that I have attended Gencon without having a downtown hotel room. 
You see, I live about 25 miles away from downtown, and I just can't justify spending an extra grand or so for a room at a connected hotel, even if one were available.  So I drive in every morning.  It's admittedly not as convenient as a connected hotel would be, but it isn't the end of the world.
No matter how nice it might be, there's not going to be enough hotel rooms for everyone downtown.  The answer is to level up the transportation options.  The Gate Ten parking is a nice start, but I think shuttle buses would be better still.  They had them for a couple years, and then stopped, but I never heard the reason.  Was it low ridership, or too many customer complaints, or something else?
It was poor, no doubt.

You signed up for a specific time, but they had too few seats and some people at hotels later in the route were left out. Plus they had only one per hour and stopped at 11. Which wouldn't be so bad if they had large capacity shuttles, but they had small ones.

Rather than fix/address the complaints, they dropped it altogether.
 

Posted by njseahawksfan gencon322198

gencon322198 wrote:
Happy to explain.
It's a matter of period of time rather than data points.  For a period of time of X years, you need X+1 data points.  Let me walk through it: 
To get 1 year period growth, you would compare 61,423 to 60,819. 
To get 2 year period growth, you would compare 56,614 to 60,819. 
To get 3 year period growth, you would compare 49,058 to 60,819. 
To get 4 year period growth, you would compare 41,000 to 60,819. 
To get 5 year period growth, you would compare 36,733 to 60,819. 
Another way to look at it is if you want a 5 year period of time, ending on August 2016, then you would have to go to the date August 2011 to be a 5 year period.  This is how Gencon did it in the article quoted above.

That's ... not how math works.  A five year period includes data for 5 years.  You don't add on another year as an "additional data point".  My original assertion includes 5 years worth of data ... 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016.  Yours includes six years by adding on 2011 (which *still* wouldn't equal doubling of the attendance anyway so I'm not really sure why we're even having this argument other than sheer pedanticism).

Posted by gencon322198 njseahawksfan

njseahawksfan wrote:
gencon322198 wrote:
Happy to explain.
It's a matter of period of time rather than data points.  For a period of time of X years, you need X+1 data points.  Let me walk through it: 
To get 1 year period growth, you would compare 61,423 to 60,819. 
To get 2 year period growth, you would compare 56,614 to 60,819. 
To get 3 year period growth, you would compare 49,058 to 60,819. 
To get 4 year period growth, you would compare 41,000 to 60,819. 
To get 5 year period growth, you would compare 36,733 to 60,819. 
Another way to look at it is if you want a 5 year period of time, ending on August 2016, then you would have to go to the date August 2011 to be a 5 year period.  This is how Gencon did it in the article quoted above.

That's ... not how math works.  A five year period includes data for 5 years.  You don't add on another year as an "additional data point".  My original assertion includes 5 years worth of data ... 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016.  Yours includes six years by adding on 2011 (which *still* wouldn't equal doubling of the attendance anyway so I'm not really sure why we're even having this argument other than sheer pedanticism).
Respectfully, I disagree. Just go read GenCon's press release which I linked if you don't believe me that doubling occurred at the end of 5 years in 2015.

Just walk back my year by year explanation of the numbers you need to compare to get the 1,2,3,4,&5 year figures, and you'll see that your logic doesn't work.

Again, the simple flaw in your math is that you are comparing the August 2012 attendance to the August 2016 attendance.  Pull out your calendar and count the days.  That is a four year period.  It is a period of time consisting of 4 years. 365 x 4 days plus 1 for leap year.

If someone asked you the one year growth figure, you would compare two data points, August 2016 and August 2015.  That's one more data point than number of years period.

You are right that doubling didn't occur for the 5 year period ending August 2016.  But doubling did occur for the 5 year period ending 2015 (see GC article).

Regardless whether math works differently in your mind, can we agree that attendance has risen a lot recently, and can you concede that my statement of doubling is based on fact (link source provided) and not lies?

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