Gen Con | Gen Con Indy 2025

http://www.gencon.com/experience/spa2017

 gharris wrote:Cosplay isn't gaming. Anime isn't gaming. Arts and crafts, belly dancing, and kinky rope play events are not gaming (well, maybe rope play if you are lucky...). Puppets are not gaming. Comic books are not gaming. We may not need to cut all of them all at once but cuts do need to start being made somewhere.
Ten years ago, sure, we had a little bit of room where we could accommodate some fluff. Now? Indy cannot handle it and we have nowhere to move to.
Right now this is a housing issue. When the convention hits it will be a parking, restaurant, and getting through the exhibit hall issue. Severe housing problems are just a symptom of a bigger problem.

Lucky for those folks Gen Con seems to be excited and happy to have Gen Con be a more varied experience than God Emperor gharris would prefer.Perhaps the God Emperor could start his own gaming convention and invite all the like minded people who are so disappointed in their inability to get a hotel room in walking distance that they want to disallow anyone who does activities they don't like. What perfect fun it would be for them without all that other fluff!
And, as a bonus, the more cosmopolitan among us wouldn't have to suffer this kind of irrational outburst targeted at members of the community.

First off, why are you personally attacking me? Is that sort of thing now allowed on this board?Secondly, how exactly am I being irrational?
Is population in excess of the capacity of downtown hotel rooms NOT the cause of yearly housing complaints?
Is being able to stay within walking distance of the convention center while keeping price gouging to a minimum NOT a key part of the experience for the vast majority of Gen Con attendees?
Does hitting the badge cap NOT mean that there are too many people, that gamers will be turned away, and that we need to trim back?
Are gaming and gaming events NOT the priority at "The Best Four Days in Gaming"?
Are we NOT locked in to staying in Indy for the next few years, with no realistic new city to move to, meaning we really can't expand any more?

Calling attention to your opinions is not an "attack" on you.I am calling attention to your opinions because you have:
a. Appointed yourself as arbiter of what is and is not gaming for Gen Con and its 60,000+ attendees.
b. Identified a list of activities you have determined are "fluff" and therefore not suitable or necessary for Gen Con
c. Stated that it will be necessary to "cut" these activities from Gen Con.
The idea that one of 60,000+ Gen Con attendees is in a position to dictate to the other 59,999+ of us and to Gen Con what events are "fluff" and what events must be "cut" is an irrational idea.
A person who expresses this idea is being irrational.
Hope that clears it up!

I did not appoint myself as the arbiter. Calling me out by name and calling me an irrational "God Emperor" is pretty clearly getting personal. I also note that you didn't even address my points.

Gen Con has defined itself as a gaming convention for 50 years now. Gaming is the heart and foundation of "The Best Four Days in Gaming". "God Emperor gharris" did not declare this, Gen Con did.

Spa activities are defined by Gen Con as "nongaming". Defined by Gen Con, not "God Emperor gharris":

Do I really need to explain why puppets, watching Japanese cartoons, comic books, and playing dress up outside of a LARP are not gaming? Better yet, can you explain why they ARE?

Do you want housing to get better next year? Then you need to reduce the population. This isn't rocket science. You do that by cutting back on events. Keeping just as many events or adding more just maintains the problem. If you are going to cut events at a gaming convention you don't start with cutting the actual gaming events.

There is no need to apologize for saying that a gaming convention should have gamers and gaming as its primary focus. This isn't the irrational ravings of "God Emperor gharris", this is what you expect from a gaming convention.

The alternative is to keep having bad housing experiences for years to come. So what do you want? Keep the fluff and continue to have bad housing or start trimming the fluff and give attendees a better experience on housing day?

Note that Gen Con doesn't actually need fluff events to thrive. Yes, I said fluff because that is what nongaming events that inflate attendance at a gaming convention are. Gen Con repeatedly outgrew its previous homes, including the city of Milwaukee, with a minimum of fluff- keep in mind the Spa program didn't even exist until 2006.

Posted by gharris lehane

#477

 lehane wrote:

 braewe wrote:
Heh. My daughter, as most 'just finished getting an A in a business class college kids' will do, decided to lecture me on all the BUSINESS reasons there are for capping attendance.
There is, apparently, a model of perfect profit, where selling x amount of badges is perfect, selling a few under is okay, you still make money, and selling a whole lot more starts costing too MUCH and eating into profits. Kind of, I guess, like a sideways D. Things like insurance, security, employees, space management, agreements for capacity, chairs, etc. No clue whether it's this complicated or back to a fire marshall thing, but the poster above was right...we just don't know.
And since the con is about a month away and since I'm putting off doing actual work work, and flitting about on the forums instead, I like speculating!

While I am in no way a college kid getting A's in business classes, I really don't get capping attendance beyond Fire Marshall/Space.Near as I can tell Gencon itself only gets money from me directly for the 4 Day Badge and Event Tickets. I seriously doubt there is a restaurant or Hotel cut, which leaves Food Truck vendors or Exhibit hall vendors as secondary sources, but depend on getting sales from customers so why would you want to limit them given not everyone will hit up most of the various vendors.
Also when I went to Emerald City Comicon last year, there were scalpers selling badges near the entrances. I really do not want a Gencon Badge Scalping trend to start and that is my greatest concern over the badges selling out at some point becoming a thing. Having your name on the Badge would be a good way of preventing it (EMCC did not have any such measure on theirs) but having to flash ID each time we flash the badge isn't going to help getting in and out of the exhibit hall.

The anniversary probably bumped the inevitable forward a year or two, but looking at the attendance growth over the past few years we were going to be close to hitting that cap soon anyways. Without doing something to reduce attendance the extra demand beyond that cap will continue to grow, badges will sell out earlier and earlier, and more and more people will not be able to attend. Look at registration and housing for SDCC- realistically if something doesn't change that will be us an a few years, and gamers will be getting crowded out of "The Greatest Four Days in Gaming".

Posted by stiehle gharris

#478

https://files.gencon.com/2017.SponsorMarketingBook.pdf

I did not appoint myself as the arbiter. Calling me out by name and calling me an irrational "God Emperor" is pretty clearly getting personal. I also note that you didn't even address my points. Gen Con has defined itself as a gaming convention for 50 years now. Gaming is the heart and foundation of "The Best Four Days in Gaming". "God Emperor gharris" did not declare this, Gen Con did.
Spa activities are defined by Gen Con as "nongaming". Defined by Gen Con, not "God Emperor gharris":
http://www.gencon.com/experience/spa2017
Do I really need to explain why puppets, watching Japanese cartoons, comic books, and playing dress up outside of a LARP are not gaming? Better yet, can you explain why they ARE?
Do you want housing to get better next year? Then you need to reduce the population. This isn't rocket science. You do that by cutting back on events. Keeping just as many events or adding more just maintains the problem. If you are going to cut events at a gaming convention you don't start with cutting the actual gaming events.
There is no need to apologize for saying that a gaming convention should have gamers and gaming as its primary focus. This isn't the irrational ravings of "God Emperor gharris", this is what you expect from a gaming convention.
The alternative is to keep having bad housing experiences for years to come. So what do you want? Keep the fluff and continue to have bad housing or start trimming the fluff and give attendees a better experience on housing day?
Note that Gen Con doesn't actually need fluff events to thrive. Yes, I said fluff because that is what nongaming events that inflate attendance at a gaming convention are. Gen Con repeatedly outgrew its previous homes, including the city of Milwaukee, with a minimum of fluff- keep in mind the Spa program didn't even exist until 2006.

Gharris, all of your points have been addressed and refuted many times over by many different people. You just don't agree, as you aren't going to get those with an opposed view to agree with your point of view.

Posted by mhayward1978 lehane

#479

 lehane wrote:Near as I can tell Gencon itself only gets money from me directly for the 4 Day Badge and Event Tickets. I seriously doubt there is a restaurant or Hotel cut, which leaves Food Truck vendors or Exhibit hall vendors as secondary sources, but depend on getting sales from customers so why would you want to limit them given not everyone will hit up most of the various vendors.

You do know that the vendors pay thousands of dollars for a tiny postage stamp of the show floor, right? And then pay for electricity, furniture rental, carpet, cleaning?

Or, for instance, that they sold out of 3 Co-Sponsor levels of sponsorship - at $75,000 a pop?

None of this undermines the general point that it could be hard to see how limiting attendance is perhaps not a short term loss of revenue - but don't kid yourself - Gen Con's income from exhibitors is not inconsequential.

Posted by mhayward1978 gharris

#480

 gharris wrote:I did not appoint myself as the arbiter. Calling me out by name and calling me an irrational "God Emperor" is pretty clearly getting personal. I also note that you didn't even address my points.

Fair enough, I'll try to do better in addressing your points, and be less offensive.

Gen Con has defined itself as a gaming convention for 50 years now. Gaming is the heart and foundation of "The Best Four Days in Gaming". "God Emperor gharris" did not declare this, Gen Con did.

Here's where I see a big problem with your line of reasoning.

You seem to be saying: "Because Gen Con is 'The Best Four Days in Gaming', therefore things that are not gaming are due less consideration/promotion/etc. from Gen Con."

This inference is not necessarily so.

Gen Con can be "the best four days in gaming" while also being a broader geek experience.

Consider an analogy: The Kentucky Derby is "The greatest 2 minutes in sports." And yet it's also famous for:

A parade of over the top elegant hats
Cocktails, especially Mint Julep
Gambling.

It's also very, very crowded and expensive to attend - hotel rooms cost over $500 a night.

Now, imagine someone saying: "The Kentucky Derby is the greatest 2 minutes in sports, it is promoted as such, all these people wearing fancy hats and drinking mint julep and gambling need to clear out so those of us who are here to watch the sport of horse racing can enjoy the greatest 2 minutes in sports!"

Ridiculous, right?

We, and Gen Con, don't have to choose between being "the best four days in gaming" and also being a broader geek culture convention.

Just like the organizers of the Kentucky Derby don't have to choose between being "the best two minutes in sports and being a fun day out for these fashion plates:

Do I really need to explain why puppets, watching Japanese cartoons, comic books, and playing dress up outside of a LARP are not gaming? Better yet, can you explain why they ARE?

As discussed above, whether or not they are gaming is irrelevant, Gen Con offering fun events that are not gaming does not degrade Gen Con's ability to be the Best Four Days in Gaming one iota.

And in any case, this was the root of my objection - I might happen to agree with your categories of gaming. But you know what? There are 60,000+ attendees of Gen Con, and they will not all agree on what a game is and what a game is not.

You're picking the easier examples, let me address some more challenging ones:

Is miniature painting a game?

Are seminars games? Maybe only some of them? What about seminars about game development? What about seminars by people who podcast about games? What about seminars on how to enter the gaming industry?

Are scavenger hunts games?

Are artists who make art features in games OK?

What about an auction that sells games?

What about social deduction games? Physical games like cornhole bean bag toss?

What about sports - are those games? Should Gen Con kick out Artists Alley and add a big Indianapolis Colts exhibit? Football is a game, right?

I think it's pretty clear that even if we accepted the false idea that we have to identify what a "game" is and what is not, there is going to be a lot of gray area.

Do you want housing to get better next year? Then you need to reduce the population.

What I want, is for Gen Con to be the funnest time for the most people, and be commercially successful enough that it stays in business, and that the exhibitors who I like keep attending.

Maybe your narrow focus on housing is why we're coming to different ideas about what is in Gen Cons interest.

I have to agree - reducing attendance would make housing better.

Better be careful we don't reduce it to zero - cause housing would be so easy - but I wouldn't be happy about it.

This isn't rocket science. You do that by cutting back on events. Keeping just as many events or adding more just maintains the problem. If you are going to cut events at a gaming convention you don't start with cutting the actual gaming events.
There is no need to apologize for saying that a gaming convention should have gamers and gaming as its primary focus. This isn't the irrational ravings of "God Emperor gharris", this is what you expect from a gaming convention.
The alternative is to keep having bad housing experiences for years to come. So what do you want? Keep the fluff and continue to have bad housing or start trimming the fluff and give attendees a better experience on housing day?
Note that Gen Con doesn't actually need fluff events to thrive. Yes, I said fluff because that is what nongaming events that inflate attendance at a gaming convention are. Gen Con repeatedly outgrew its previous homes, including the city of Milwaukee, with a minimum of fluff- keep in mind the Spa program didn't even exist until 2006.

I reject your premise that it is in Gen Con, or the general attendees best interest to reduce attendance.

But granting that, I reject your premise that if attendance reduction is a goal it necessarily follows that any particular category or categories of events must be cut.

But granting that, I reject your premise that you have correctly identified the categories to be cut.

Your whole argument seems to be: "I'm unhappy about the housing situation, I think the best solution is to reduce attendance, I think Gen Con should eliminate the attendees who participate in events I don't care for."

Sad.

Posted by stiehle

#481

Mhayward1978, well said! :)

Posted by njseahawksfan gharris

#482

Your assumption is based on suspect data. Attendance had leveled off immediately preceding the 50th. It is equally likely that this year is the outlier and that attendance will go back to what it was before the 50th. Neither you nor I know what's going to happen in the future and there is data to support both conjectures. Luckily for both of us, we have 3 more years of data upcoming to see what's going to happen before GenCon has to make a decision.

Posted by njseahawksfan gharris

#483

 gharris wrote:
Do you want housing to get better next year? Then you need to reduce the population. This isn't rocket science. You do that by cutting back on events. Keeping just as many events or adding more just maintains the problem. If you are going to cut events at a gaming convention you don't start with cutting the actual gaming events.

Housing doesn't need to get better next year. Housing is fine. There are still hotels available in block. The issue is that you didn't get the hotel you wanted, which is a personal problem, not a GenCon problem. It would be great if there were rooms downtown for everyone who wanted them, but there's not (and there hasn't been even when the con was *half* this size). It's foolish to think GenCon would restrict events or the number of people attending just so you can have a better hotel room.

Posted by squirecam njseahawksfan

#484

But it has not leveled off. It still increased. It might go down from this year's new record, but its unlikely to drop below 60,000. Moe likely is that it continues to rise.

Gen Con 2016, which for the first time featured more than 500 exhibitors and an expansion into Lucas Oil Stadium, continued a seven-year streak of record turnstile attendance with 201,852 attendees, up 2.5% from 2015 attendance. Unique attendance remained nearly flat, ending at 60,819. Unique 4-Day Badge holders increased 4% year over year.

Posted by squirecam njseahawksfan

#485

Housing doesn't need to get better next year. Housing is fine. There are still hotels available in block. The issue is that you didn't get the hotel you wanted, which is a personal problem, not a GenCon problem. It would be great if there were rooms downtown for everyone who wanted them, but there's not (and there hasn't been even when the con was *half* this size). It's foolish to think GenCon would restrict events or the number of people attending just so you can have a better hotel room.

Absolutely correct. And the problem has existed for years with nothing being done. Indy has actually lost 1000 from its high period.

But housing is not fine. Things need to change.

I just don't see targeting non-gamer spouses and children as useful.

Posted by gharris njseahawksfan

#486

Note that I said past few years, not last year. It has already been pointed out that attendance doubled between 2010-2015. It is realistic to draw the conclusion that population will continue to rise despite one slower year.

I could be wrong, sure. But the data says I am probably right.

Posted by austicke

#487

Last year, Gen Con increased badge prices significantly. It was the largest percentage increase ever since coming to Indy, and they said one of the purposes was to control growth.

I can only speculate that perhaps it worked better than intended because this year there was no badge price increase at all for the first time in many years.

Based on what's happening this year, I assume we're in for another significant bump next year.

____________________________________________________
Alec Usticke, Unofficial Gen Con Indy Facebook Discussion Group

Posted by gharris squirecam

#488

Housing doesn't need to get better next year. Housing is fine. There are still hotels available in block. The issue is that you didn't get the hotel you wanted, which is a personal problem, not a GenCon problem. It would be great if there were rooms downtown for everyone who wanted them, but there's not (and there hasn't been even when the con was *half* this size). It's foolish to think GenCon would restrict events or the number of people attending just so you can have a better hotel room.

Absolutely correct. And the problem has existed for years with nothing being done. Indy has actually lost 1000 from its high period.But housing is not fine. Things need to change.
I just don't see targeting non-gamer spouses and children as useful.

Non-gaming spouses and children still attended when Gen Con did not have events targeted at them. Gen Con actually did just fine when it did that- remember, it outgrew Milwaukee!

We also don't necessarily have to cut everything all at once. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.

What this will reduce is the number of families and single attendees who are obviously not coming for the gaming.

The simple fact is no city can host a growing "Gaming, anything even vaguely interesting to gamers, and anything people who came with gamers but don't care about gaming" show. It just can't be done, and we have nowhere to really move to any more. The growth that comes with the kitchen sink approach just can't be sustained.

Our housing problem today is a future problem getting a badge. Even if Gen Con doesn't trim its programming it will still have to cut people out of being able to go- demand will exceed supply. That is how capping badge sales works.

Posted by njseahawksfan squirecam

#489

Housing doesn't need to get better next year. Housing is fine. There are still hotels available in block. The issue is that you didn't get the hotel you wanted, which is a personal problem, not a GenCon problem. It would be great if there were rooms downtown for everyone who wanted them, but there's not (and there hasn't been even when the con was *half* this size). It's foolish to think GenCon would restrict events or the number of people attending just so you can have a better hotel room.

Fair enough.

But the issue isn't a GenCon issue then, it's an Indianapolis issue. And that issue has been argued on these boards ad nauseum without anything close to a consensus. And I posted a link earlier in this thread where the City of Indianapolis debates whether or not they can sustainably build more hotels downtown. It's not a foregone conclusion.

Posted by gharris njseahawksfan

#490

Swing and a miss. I am staying for free at a friend's house this year.

As already pointed out, when people are talking about housing they aren't talking about how great it is to stay by the airport. Attendees have made it very clear that they want a hotel that they can quickly walk back to during the show. Nobody cares that there are overpriced rooms available 7-10 miles away.

Gen Con should curb its numbers so a higher percentage of its attendees can have a better hotel room. This isn't just a "me, me, me" situation, it impacts all of us.

Posted by njseahawksfan squirecam

#491

But it has not leveled off. It still increased. It might go down from this year's new record, but its unlikely to drop below 60,000. Moe likely is that it continues to rise.

Gen Con 2016, which for the first time featured more than 500 exhibitors and an expansion into Lucas Oil Stadium, continued a seven-year streak of record turnstile attendance with 201,852 attendees, up 2.5% from 2015 attendance. Unique attendance remained nearly flat, ending at 60,819. Unique 4-Day Badge holders increased 4% year over year.

Your cited reference above seems to say that it leveled off ... "attendance remained nearly flat".

In any case, my point is that you may think it's more likely to rise, but there is an argument to be made that it had peaked and that this year is special just because it's the 50th. I'm not saying I'm right, I'm saying neither of us can know the answer until at least next year.

Posted by gharris njseahawksfan

#492

Housing doesn't need to get better next year. Housing is fine. There are still hotels available in block. The issue is that you didn't get the hotel you wanted, which is a personal problem, not a GenCon problem. It would be great if there were rooms downtown for everyone who wanted them, but there's not (and there hasn't been even when the con was *half* this size). It's foolish to think GenCon would restrict events or the number of people attending just so you can have a better hotel room.

Fair enough.But the issue isn't a GenCon issue then, it's an Indianapolis issue. And that issue has been argued on these boards ad nauseum without anything close to a consensus. And I posted a link earlier in this thread where the City of Indianapolis debates whether or not they can sustainably build more hotels downtown. It's not a foregone conclusion.

Growth will continue. More people will be turned away. More people will try to crowd into the city anyways. Badges will sell out earlier and earlier. As much as we cant to stay with the kitchen sink approach to Gen Con- we can't, especially if Gen Con does not want to lose its gaming focus.

Posted by gharris njseahawksfan

#493

But it has not leveled off. It still increased. It might go down from this year's new record, but its unlikely to drop below 60,000. Moe likely is that it continues to rise.

Gen Con 2016, which for the first time featured more than 500 exhibitors and an expansion into Lucas Oil Stadium, continued a seven-year streak of record turnstile attendance with 201,852 attendees, up 2.5% from 2015 attendance. Unique attendance remained nearly flat, ending at 60,819. Unique 4-Day Badge holders increased 4% year over year.

Your cited reference above seems to say that it leveled off ... "attendance remained nearly flat".In any case, my point is that you may think it's more likely to rise, but there is an argument to be made that it had peaked and that this year is special just because it's the 50th. I'm not saying I'm right, I'm saying neither of us can know the answer until at least next year.

Even if we disregard the anniversary effect this year, and we "only" had 4% growth this year and another 4% growth on growth next year we still would have probably hit the cap. Gen Con was pretty swamped last year.

As Austicke already noted this was an increase in attendance even when there was a spike in badge prices.

Posted by njseahawksfan gharris

#494

Swing and a miss. I am staying for free at a friend's house this year.As already pointed out, when people are talking about housing they aren't talking about how great it is to stay by the airport. Attendees have made it very clear that they want a hotel that they can quickly walk back to during the show. Nobody cares that there are overpriced rooms available 7-10 miles away.
Gen Con should curb its numbers so a higher percentage of its attendees can have a better hotel room. This isn't just a "me, me, me" situation, it impacts all of us.

Somehow I doubt that most people who attend GenCon would be willing to risk not being able to get a pass so that the people who did get a pass could have better rooms.

Posted by stiehle gharris

#495