Regarding the coronavirus survey, policies need to have no exceptions or they are useless.
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Posted by squirecam elvinlord
#51

elvinlord wrote:
I think at this point its pretty safe to say that masks will be mandatory, there will reduced max capacity and probably elimination of all large groups (no opening ceremony, no cardhalla, no will call.
The likelihood that we will be able to rely on vaccine alone to have a safe con is highly unlikely.  My state which has been fairly aggressive in getting people vaccinated is looking at July before even starting vaccinating the general population.  The bright side is that most of the high risk and front line people will likely be vaccinated, maybe that will be enough.
Honestly at this point just a mandatory mask requirement would make gencon a no go.  I just cant foresee spending 8-12 hours a day of my vacation wearing a mask.  Who knows maybe they will be able to pull off some magic and we will just end up with a low attendance old timey con, downtown hotels for everyone.         
You can wear a face shield according to the ICC website.

Posted by squirecam chaos62417
#52

chaos62417 wrote:
geezer wrote:
chaos62417 wrote:
While I disagree wholeheartedly with the OP and what he thinks needs to be implemented I do agree that there should be no exceptions. This is why Gen Con should not even happen unless the policies in place are minimal.
IE the only policies that should really be in place are mandatory masks (and that is if the CDC still requires them) and sanitization stations available everywhere. That is it, these are the only two adjustments that should be made.
Temperature checks/screens? Vaccination proof upon entry? are you guys serious? do you have any idea how long it would take to get into the convention center?
Social distancing? this is impossible, we cant even social distance properly in a grocery store or restaurant. if social distancing is required then that means limited entry or capacity restrictions are in place, this is an absolute no go. No chance people are signing off paying for hotels stays, air fair and badges to only be allowed a few hours of convention time for the weekend.
Mandatory vaccinations? you as Americans should be against this. you have your free will get the vaccine if you so please. Many many other people have legitimate reasons to not get the vaccine. Do not let people cross yet another line of your civil liberty. if you are vaccinated you don't need to worry about the person not vaccinated. 
Vaccination stickers? These should absolutely not be allowed, reason being? this creates an opportunity for animosity or a powder keg situation. You cannot allow people to create a have and have not situation where people with a sticker get serviced a different way or worse yet are being shown negative aggression.
Each and every rule that you want to add or enforce will require more staff, staff that Gen Con doesn't necessarily have. Without proper staffing you then introduce opportunity for people to be "enforcement police" again this leads to a possible powder keg situation. We need to think about less is more in this situation. 
Lastly and the me the largest reason less should be more is we cannot control or dictate non Gen Con businesses. You can make all of the restrictions that you would like for Gen Con attendees but none of these rules would apply to anywhere else. Hotels, no, food trucks, no, every other restaurant, no, the mall, no. So unless the changes are minimal, again I would say only masks and sanitizer, Gen Con should consider delaying everything else makes the situation pretty dire.
It is depressing to me that there are people that are not willing to take basic measures to create a safe Gen Con.  No on is infringing on your freedom to not be vaccinated.  You have the freedom to not be vaccinated.  That is your choice.  If Gen Con decides you must be vaccinated to attend, then you have made the choice to not attend.  It is that simple.  Choices have consequences.  All of this does not have to be handled at the door.  You could be asked to show evidence of vaccination to purchase a badge.
I would ask you to reassess your line of reasoning when you consider getting vaccines as a basic measure. I would also say that the exact opposite of what your saying also rings true. If gen con decides that you do not need to be vaccinated then those that feel like you should be forced to get a vaccine in order to live may also choose not to attend. Also your proposal asks for people to bypass HIPA and asks Gen Con staff to track and maintain personal health records... this is a nightmare both liability wise and man power wise.this reinforces how policies implemented need to be minimal.
can you imagine limited capacity? You would have people camping out in front of doors, people would never leave the convention hall, vendors couldn’t get lunch because their people couldn’t get back in.
every additional policy increases Gen Cons liability, every policy will require a lot more staff, every policy will create loop holes for people to exploit and create a lesser experience for other attendees that will in result create a negative reaction for those that will spend good sums of money to attend for four days.
I don’t envy Gen Cons position at this time, the event is in a weird grey area of time. Many experts believe July will be a good chance of a return to normal but vaccines are slower than anticipated. I personally am hopeful that Gen con is near normal, infection rates are decreasing drastically. I’m hopeful that a tendon with only a mask requirement is how this shakes out.
yes either of the two extremes (Free for all no rules vs mask+vaccine+strict enforcement) will cause some group of people not to go. Likely so will any choice in the middle.

The thing is that they are trying their best. Whatever they choose, the attendees have to make a choice. Go or dont go. If they go, then they need to respect the rules that were made.

I do note that current ICC policy requires masks but not proof of vaccination. So I think this idea of violating HIPAA is overblown. I doubt Gencon is going to do things radically different from current ICC guidelines. 

https://www.icclos.com/icclos-response-to-covid-19/

Posted by geezer chaos62417
#53

chaos62417 wrote:
geezer wrote:
chaos62417 wrote:
While I disagree wholeheartedly with the OP and what he thinks needs to be implemented I do agree that there should be no exceptions. This is why Gen Con should not even happen unless the policies in place are minimal.
IE the only policies that should really be in place are mandatory masks (and that is if the CDC still requires them) and sanitization stations available everywhere. That is it, these are the only two adjustments that should be made.
Temperature checks/screens? Vaccination proof upon entry? are you guys serious? do you have any idea how long it would take to get into the convention center?
Social distancing? this is impossible, we cant even social distance properly in a grocery store or restaurant. if social distancing is required then that means limited entry or capacity restrictions are in place, this is an absolute no go. No chance people are signing off paying for hotels stays, air fair and badges to only be allowed a few hours of convention time for the weekend.
Mandatory vaccinations? you as Americans should be against this. you have your free will get the vaccine if you so please. Many many other people have legitimate reasons to not get the vaccine. Do not let people cross yet another line of your civil liberty. if you are vaccinated you don't need to worry about the person not vaccinated. 
Vaccination stickers? These should absolutely not be allowed, reason being? this creates an opportunity for animosity or a powder keg situation. You cannot allow people to create a have and have not situation where people with a sticker get serviced a different way or worse yet are being shown negative aggression.
Each and every rule that you want to add or enforce will require more staff, staff that Gen Con doesn't necessarily have. Without proper staffing you then introduce opportunity for people to be "enforcement police" again this leads to a possible powder keg situation. We need to think about less is more in this situation. 
Lastly and the me the largest reason less should be more is we cannot control or dictate non Gen Con businesses. You can make all of the restrictions that you would like for Gen Con attendees but none of these rules would apply to anywhere else. Hotels, no, food trucks, no, every other restaurant, no, the mall, no. So unless the changes are minimal, again I would say only masks and sanitizer, Gen Con should consider delaying everything else makes the situation pretty dire.
It is depressing to me that there are people that are not willing to take basic measures to create a safe Gen Con.  No on is infringing on your freedom to not be vaccinated.  You have the freedom to not be vaccinated.  That is your choice.  If Gen Con decides you must be vaccinated to attend, then you have made the choice to not attend.  It is that simple.  Choices have consequences.  All of this does not have to be handled at the door.  You could be asked to show evidence of vaccination to purchase a badge.
I would ask you to reassess your line of reasoning when you consider getting vaccines as a basic measure. I would also say that the exact opposite of what your saying also rings true. If gen con decides that you do not need to be vaccinated then those that feel like you should be forced to get a vaccine in order to live may also choose not to attend. Also your proposal asks for people to bypass HIPA and asks Gen Con staff to track and maintain personal health records... this is a nightmare both liability wise and man power wise.this reinforces how policies implemented need to be minimal.
can you imagine limited capacity? You would have people camping out in front of doors, people would never leave the convention hall, vendors couldn’t get lunch because their people couldn’t get back in.
every additional policy increases Gen Cons liability, every policy will require a lot more staff, every policy will create loop holes for people to exploit and create a lesser experience for other attendees that will in result create a negative reaction for those that will spend good sums of money to attend for four days.
I don’t envy Gen Cons position at this time, the event is in a weird grey area of time. Many experts believe July will be a good chance of a return to normal but vaccines are slower than anticipated. I personally am hopeful that Gen con is near normal, infection rates are decreasing drastically. I’m hopeful that a tendon with only a mask requirement is how this shakes out.
My line of reasoning is solid.  No one's civil liberties are being infringed upon.  Using your line of reasoning is no different than considering the DMV's insistence that you take a driver's test in order to legally drive an infringement on your civil liberties.  That requirement is for the greater good.  Gen Con would not have to keep records.  They would only have to see evidence of vaccination to issue a badge.  HIPAA is not violated if you willingly share the information.  The only thing you said I agree with is that if I felt unsafe at a Gen Con which did not require evidence of vaccination, it would be my choice to go or not.  I am OK with that.   

Posted by kevinrg geezer
#54

Gen Con would not have to keep records.  They would only have to see evidence of vaccination to issue a badge.  HIPAA is not violated if you willingly share the information.  

Even if they aren't keeping them, then that goes back to onsite verification which, once again, would be a logistical nightmare especially with no standardization of proof.   You could say, send the email and then delete, but until you get to that point of 'destroying' the record, the data resides on the email servers and you still have a responsibility of that data.   I freely give out my SSN on credit/mortgage apps, but I still have an expectation that data will be protected.

Too bad Gencon wasn't just another month out (in September) to give them time.   At some point, someone has to be the first concert, con, 50%+ sporting event, fair, etc. and then everything will flow from that.    My guess is sporting events and larger theme parks will 'show the way' (so to speak) and everyone will go from that for the rest of the year.
 

Posted by xanathon
#55

Let's be honest there is no way to keep any kind of social distancing at Gen Con.  There is a very high percentage of attendees that are of the I only care about myself mentality.  They would still attend even if they knew they were positive for COVID.  Because of the mentality of these people vaccination should be a requirement for attending.  I say this not being worried about myself, but for those that are immune compromised or just not in good health.

We also should think about the vendors, game masters, volunteers, artists, and anyone else that helps make Gen Con what it is.  They should feel as safe as possible in this.  Knowing only people who are vaccinated are attending is the easiest way to do this.

This is a gaming convention first and foremost.  It is virtually impossible to have a physical convention without people coming into close proximity to each other.

If people choose not to get vaccinated, as is their right, then they should face the consequences of not getting vaccinated.

Posted by kar8a
#56

If Disney can social distance tourists (and if there's ever a group that's in the "I care only about myself" category, it would be the Disney tourist), Gencon can social distance in a Convention Center and sports stadium:).

Part of it is probably gonna involve capacity limits for total badges sold, which the convention center itself may impose.  Just that factor - more space for fewer people does worlds for enabling distance. 

Part of it may be room limits on top of those capacity limits and event attendee limits (ie - no event over X people)...part of it may be having stuff outdoors where distance matters WAY less (especially in heat and sun and humidity - the trifecta for seriously reducing any viral transmission).  Part of it may be signage and tape and plastic separators.  And part of it may be a request to Con goers (and maybe this is a fail, but as someone mentioned upthread, no event in the history of all events has ever been able to guarantee patron health, so they probably can't guarantee perfect social distance either - they can only follow best practices).

But, as the saying goes, you don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.  I think that's a saying for Gencon 2021 for everything.  There can be good, lots and lots of good, even if it's not the "perfect Con experience" from days of old.  Heck, maybe some things can be better:).

But if anyone wants perfect - this is the year to just plan now to stay home.  The Con, if it goes ahead, won't be perfect for anyone - those who care not at all about the virus and those who care a lot and everyone in between.  It can't be perfect.  But it can be good, and very good, for most.

Posted by cmegus
#57

I am getting this strange sense of deja vu, much like last year, in the way this is heading...

Convention odds of happening live dropping fast :(

 

Posted by squirecam cmegus
#58

cmegus wrote:
I am getting this strange sense of deja vu, much like last year, in the way this is heading...
Convention odds of happening live dropping fast :(
 
You can hold a convention in IN right now at the ICC. Of course, there are several requirements, including masks mandated, temperature checks, 25% capacity and social distancing to name a few.

Things should only get better from here, as long as people are vaccinated. 

Now Gencon may not be profitable under those conditions. Which means a Gencon Online that will be better than the first one.

But dont give up hope. Its February. 

Posted by lore seeker squirecam
#59

squirecam wrote:
cmegus wrote:
I am getting this strange sense of deja vu, much like last year, in the way this is heading...
Convention odds of happening live dropping fast :(
You can hold a convention in IN right now at the ICC. Of course, there are several requirements, including masks mandated, temperature checks, 25% capacity and social distancing to name a few.Things should only get better from here, as long as people are vaccinated. 
Now Gencon may not be profitable under those conditions. Which means a Gencon Online that will be better than the first one.
But dont give up hope. Its February. 

Exactly. We have so much more going for us this year than we did last year, and we've only started the vaccine roll-out.

Posted by eldrad12000 lore seeker
#60

father bloodlust wrote:
squirecam wrote:
cmegus wrote:
I am getting this strange sense of deja vu, much like last year, in the way this is heading...
Convention odds of happening live dropping fast :(
You can hold a convention in IN right now at the ICC. Of course, there are several requirements, including masks mandated, temperature checks, 25% capacity and social distancing to name a few.Things should only get better from here, as long as people are vaccinated. 
Now Gencon may not be profitable under those conditions. Which means a Gencon Online that will be better than the first one.
But dont give up hope. Its February. 

Exactly. We have so much more going for us this year than we did last year, and we've only started the vaccine roll-out.
I agree with this, also if they do push it back, which was something they mentioned in the survey, that can only improve odds that things will be better.

Posted by chaos62417 xanathon
#61

xanathon wrote:
Let's be honest there is no way to keep any kind of social distancing at Gen Con.  There is a very high percentage of attendees that are of the I only care about myself mentality.  They would still attend even if they knew they were positive for COVID.  Because of the mentality of these people vaccination should be a requirement for attending.  I say this not being worried about myself, but for those that are immune compromised or just not in good health.
We also should think about the vendors, game masters, volunteers, artists, and anyone else that helps make Gen Con what it is.  They should feel as safe as possible in this.  Knowing only people who are vaccinated are attending is the easiest way to do this.
This is a gaming convention first and foremost.  It is virtually impossible to have a physical convention without people coming into close proximity to each other.
If people choose not to get vaccinated, as is their right, then they should face the consequences of not getting vaccinated.
so the company that prides itself on being inclusive should do the opposite of what it preaches? How do you plan exactly to close every loop hole the selfish people you have mentioned (of which their are many, so many) will undoubtedly abuse?

Posted by chaos62417 cmegus
#62

cmegus wrote:
I am getting this strange sense of deja vu, much like last year, in the way this is heading...
Convention odds of happening live dropping fast :(
 
I’m not doubting that Gen con happens I am starting to have many doubts however on what exactly it will look like. It doesn’t seem like it will be anything like what we have grown used to.

Posted by kar8a
#63

Well, Magic Kingdom goers would tell you that Disney World is not where it was pre-March 2020, but it's still a lot of fun and worth going to on vacation:).  And it gets better every day.

As for a date kick to later in 2021, I don't think there's any positive possibility from kicking the Con into flu season, when we had a nonexistent flu season for 2020-2021, so the odds we get a major one next year are probably higher as everyone mixes again.  

You want the Con when we have max heat, humidity, and sunlight - people have fewer viruses of all types then.  Early August is perfect for that scenario.  Pushing later means you bring into play all sorts of "crud" (including Covid) that makes everything more difficult.  

See, the Covid stats for last summer vs last fall (both when the nation was kinda open).  Early August was a national down point, even when tons of things were open.  It's literally the perfect time. 

Yes, the vaccine should be our solution, but if it's not, the same timeline may develop.  You want to be in "open" season even if you have to go 1st.

And really, Gencon isn't 1st.  Hershey Park was open last summer.  Busch Gardens has been open since last summer.  All the Florida theme parks have been open.  The NFL had thousands of fans at games.  Etc, etc.  

Maybe it will be the 1st major onsite game Con.  But, then, isn't that why the FL theme parks led the way for theme park opens?  Disney and Universal could show everyone else how to do it... 

Posted by squirecam eldrad12000
#64

eldrad12000 wrote:
father bloodlust wrote:
squirecam wrote:
cmegus wrote:
I am getting this strange sense of deja vu, much like last year, in the way this is heading...
Convention odds of happening live dropping fast :(
You can hold a convention in IN right now at the ICC. Of course, there are several requirements, including masks mandated, temperature checks, 25% capacity and social distancing to name a few.Things should only get better from here, as long as people are vaccinated. 
Now Gencon may not be profitable under those conditions. Which means a Gencon Online that will be better than the first one.
But dont give up hope. Its February. 

Exactly. We have so much more going for us this year than we did last year, and we've only started the vaccine roll-out.
I agree with this, also if they do push it back, which was something they mentioned in the survey, that can only improve odds that things will be better.
If it gets pushed into October, there could be problems with outdoor space. Which is another option they mentioned.

If it cant go in August I'd rather see a robust Gencon Online.

Posted by monkeyknifefight kar8a
#65

kar8a wrote:
Well, Magic Kingdom goers would tell you that Disney World is not where it was pre-March 2020, but it's still a lot of fun and worth going to on vacation:).  And it gets better every day.
As for a date kick to later in 2021, I don't think there's any positive possibility from kicking the Con into flu season, when we had a nonexistent flu season for 2020-2021, so the odds we get a major one next year are probably higher as everyone mixes again.  
You want the Con when we have max heat, humidity, and sunlight - people have fewer viruses of all types then.  Early August is perfect for that scenario.  Pushing later means you bring into play all sorts of "crud" (including Covid) that makes everything more difficult.  
See, the Covid stats for last summer vs last fall (both when the nation was kinda open).  Early August was a national down point, even when tons of things were open.  It's literally the perfect time. 
Yes, the vaccine should be our solution, but if it's not, the same timeline may develop.  You want to be in "open" season even if you have to go 1st.
And really, Gencon isn't 1st.  Hershey Park was open last summer.  Busch Gardens has been open since last summer.  All the Florida theme parks have been open.  The NFL had thousands of fans at games.  Etc, etc.  
Maybe it will be the 1st major onsite game Con.  But, then, isn't that why the FL theme parks led the way for theme park opens?  Disney and Universal could show everyone else how to do it... 
You bring up a lot of good points. Right now with vaccines barely having an effect covid cases are plummeting nationwide and summer should be the lowest point of the year especially in the Midwest. Add in vaccinations and infection related immunity cases should be even less than last years low point.

You bring up a lot of good examples of amusement parks or sporting events being able to be open. However they are mostly outdoor which is substantially safer. And while masks are an inconvenience there you aren’t frequently communicating playing a game around the table. I’ve gone to plenty of amusement parks and it’s been fine wearing a mask. I would not play a board game or rpg masked though. It would be too miserable.

However if the cases and hospitalizations continue to plummet with the aid of vaccinations I would expect restrictions to loosen rapidly by summer.

Posted by kar8a
#66

See, I'd play with a mask.  If you have the 3 ply disposable surgical ones, they almost become unnoticeable if you wear them for a week or so.  It's the handmade cotton ones that seem to get annoying faster:).  We made the swap last June after I realized type of mask mattered (and when you could get the disposable ones, since they were pretty much unavailable in the spring).

In 2021, I've definitely gotten used to "do x, so we can have some y"...so, if it's wear a mask to play a 4 hour RPG, no sweat.  Just have the GM pre-plan a break or two for bathrooms/water (or let players know they can step out for same when needed), and I'm golden (and I've never been on a Con RPG table that didn't have a break at some point when the game went more than 2 hours, so this wouldn't even be a thing:)...or have it outside under a tarp/tent and leave the masks off...or any of 100 options...again, I leave it to the Con organizers to make the most feasible, reasonable, and budget-possible plan:).  

I can work with any plan if I know it:).  But having games since March 2020 online with a group of friends, I can say actually seeing people in person would be worth many annoyances.  Or slightly degraded experiences.  Onsite just allows a sociability and energy that's impossible to replicate online.  

As the saying goes, the journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.  We're on that side now.  To get back what we might want, we've got to take the single steps to start the path there.  And we can:).

 

Posted by mikeboozer
#67

Good discussion so far, thanks for that.

To clarify a few points. Gen Con's survey is intended to get feedback on how you the attendee feel about various possible scenarios.

However there are things we will not have control over and will be mandated by whatever policies are put forth by the health department and or Governors office. If for example you must be masked to attend then you must, end of discussion.

Mike

Posted by xanathon chaos62417
#68

chaos62417 wrote:
cmegus wrote:
I am getting this strange sense of deja vu, much like last year, in the way this is heading...
Convention odds of happening live dropping fast :(
I’m not doubting that Gen con happens I am starting to have many doubts however on what exactly it will look like. It doesn’t seem like it will be anything like what we have grown used to.
The immediate answer is to not allow anyone in the convention center that cannot show proof of being vaccinated.  As to how they go about doing that, well I don't have an answer for you because I don't work on the planning portion obviously.  I don't know how the convention center would handle this as it would require more staff working the event.

If the staff can be increased to handle this then it should be able to be handled.

Look at it this way though to see the point I am trying to make.  There are people who have no concept of basic hygiene that are in abundance at Gen Con.  If these people can't put on deodorant I seriously doubt that they will get vaccinated.  There has to be some sort of measure to reduce the risk to people and not allowing those who are not vaccinated is the easiest way to do this.  Again I am not saying this because I am worried about myself.  I am concerned for others as I am in very good heath.  

I also think by not allowing those that aren't vaccinated will also eliminate those that will argue against wearing a mask because it violates their rights, those that think that COVID is fake news, and those that simply don't care if they infect other people.

 

Posted by kar8a xanathon
#69

xanathon wrote:
chaos62417 wrote:
cmegus wrote:
I am getting this strange sense of deja vu, much like last year, in the way this is heading...
Convention odds of happening live dropping fast :(
I’m not doubting that Gen con happens I am starting to have many doubts however on what exactly it will look like. It doesn’t seem like it will be anything like what we have grown used to.
The immediate answer is to not allow anyone in the convention center that cannot show proof of being vaccinated.  As to how they go about doing that, well I don't have an answer for you because I don't work on the planning portion obviously.  I don't know how the convention center would handle this as it would require more staff working the event.If the staff can be increased to handle this then it should be able to be handled.
Look at it this way though to see the point I am trying to make.  There are people who have no concept of basic hygiene that are in abundance at Gen Con.  If these people can't put on deodorant I seriously doubt that they will get vaccinated.  There has to be some sort of measure to reduce the risk to people and not allowing those who are not vaccinated is the easiest way to do this.  Again I am not saying this because I am worried about myself.  I am concerned for others as I am in very good heath.  
I also think by not allowing those that aren't vaccinated will also eliminate those that will argue against wearing a mask because it violates their rights, those that think that COVID is fake news, and those that simply don't care if they infect other people.

Policing vaccine cards is probably impossible - even now, the internet is rife with articles about protecting that info b/c it's so easy to take and/or fake.  If you think someone, like Comic Book Man (from the Simpsons), won't put on deodorant, that same someone will just get a fake Covid card.  With every county in the US giving out different ones, it's literally child's play to do.

It's hard to fake a mask (if that is necessary) - everyone in the whole Con sees it.  It's hard to fake a facility and/or room cap - it's counted and needs only 1 person to count.  It's hard to fake a badge if overall badges are limited - everyone sees those, too.  Etc, etc...  

When you put in place policies, you consider effectiveness vs efficiency (and then add in legality and expense).  But no matter what policy, nothing will be perfect. 

If Comic Book Man is too much of a risk for someone individually to attend, they probably should pass on 2021, since you literally can't police out the "exception" type of person.  Something will fail at least once - ask Disney and their 1st day after the rain storm line at Seven Dwarfs Mine Train (and that was their own employees).  So, there will be risk, however slight, but it will be the best that any reasonable person/company could do.  Attendees have to accept that if they want to attend - no one and nothing can be perfect.

And then I'll start repeating myself, so I'll stop:)...

PS - That said, if Gencon wants to take on the task, well, my spouse is trying to figure out how to jump the line now so he's good either way:)...

Posted by squirecam mikeboozer
#70

mikeboozer wrote:
Good discussion so far, thanks for that.
To clarify a few points. Gen Con's survey is intended to get feedback on how you the attendee feel about various possible scenarios.
However there are things we will not have control over and will be mandated by whatever policies are put forth by the health department and or Governors office. If for example you must be masked to attend then you must, end of discussion.
Mike
I appreciate that. 

I was wondering about the outdoor ideas. Would that Be utilizing the area where the food trucks park (so essentially no trucks there) or are there other options, such as perhaps the baseball stadium?

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