BIPOC Lounge
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Posted by polski2020
#26

I was completely confused by this BIPOC email, too.  Especially with the phrasing of Lounge because here I thought us gamers were striving to be one entity and just GAME.
I don't care who you are, what you do, or what you look like . . . . I'll just utterly hate you if you eliminate me in 3 rounds in MTG.  Just sayin'.

Posted by dragongears polski2020
#27

polski2020 wrote:
I was completely confused by this BIPOC email, too.  Especially with the phrasing of Lounge because here I thought us gamers were striving to be one entity and just GAME.
I don't care who you are, what you do, or what you look like . . . . I'll just utterly hate you if you eliminate me in 3 rounds in MTG.  Just sayin'.

We are not one entity. We segregate ourselves all the time. It's just so common that we don't notice. In terms of Gen Con alone, there are spaces for role players, CCG players, tabletop miniatures, AA meetings, Christian worship services and many other things. It would be complete chaos if all these things were mashed together. The fact that people carving out their own space based on their ethnicity causes such consternation among certain people is very telling.

Posted by mbeauparland dragongears
#28

dragongears wrote:
polski2020 wrote:
I was completely confused by this BIPOC email, too.  Especially with the phrasing of Lounge because here I thought us gamers were striving to be one entity and just GAME.
I don't care who you are, what you do, or what you look like . . . . I'll just utterly hate you if you eliminate me in 3 rounds in MTG.  Just sayin'.

We are not one entity. We segregate ourselves all the time. It's just so common that we don't notice. In terms of Gen Con alone, there are spaces for role players, CCG players, tabletop miniatures, AA meetings, Christian worship services and many other things. It would be complete chaos if all these things were mashed together. The fact that people carving out their own space based on their ethnicity causes such consternation among certain people is very telling.

I don't think most people who are "bothered" are concerned by a separate location set aside to highlight the work and interests of BIPOC creators, rather the idea that such an area would be exclusionary of anyone who doesn't identify as "non-white." Sure, there are RPG, Boardgame, and CCG areas, but everyone is allowed to enter them...

I can't argue that there aren't bad actors at Gen Con, but I think much of this situation stems from an ambiguously worded announcement.

Posted by dragongears mbeauparland
#29

mbeauparland wrote:
dragongears wrote:
polski2020 wrote:
I was completely confused by this BIPOC email, too.  Especially with the phrasing of Lounge because here I thought us gamers were striving to be one entity and just GAME.
I don't care who you are, what you do, or what you look like . . . . I'll just utterly hate you if you eliminate me in 3 rounds in MTG.  Just sayin'.

We are not one entity. We segregate ourselves all the time. It's just so common that we don't notice. In terms of Gen Con alone, there are spaces for role players, CCG players, tabletop miniatures, AA meetings, Christian worship services and many other things. It would be complete chaos if all these things were mashed together. The fact that people carving out their own space based on their ethnicity causes such consternation among certain people is very telling.

I don't think most people who are "bothered" are concerned by a separate location set aside to highlight the work and interests of BIPOC creators, rather the idea that such an area would be exclusionary of anyone who doesn't identify as "non-white." Sure, there are RPG, Boardgame, and CCG areas, but everyone is allowed to enter them...I can't argue that there aren't bad actors at Gen Con, but I think much of this situation stems from an ambiguously worded announcement.

The Gaymer Gatherings are open to everyone. I would be surprised if this was any different.
 

Posted by dalthius mbeauparland
#30

mbeauparland wrote:
dragongears wrote:
polski2020 wrote:
I was completely confused by this BIPOC email, too.  Especially with the phrasing of Lounge because here I thought us gamers were striving to be one entity and just GAME.
I don't care who you are, what you do, or what you look like . . . . I'll just utterly hate you if you eliminate me in 3 rounds in MTG.  Just sayin'.

We are not one entity. We segregate ourselves all the time. It's just so common that we don't notice. In terms of Gen Con alone, there are spaces for role players, CCG players, tabletop miniatures, AA meetings, Christian worship services and many other things. It would be complete chaos if all these things were mashed together. The fact that people carving out their own space based on their ethnicity causes such consternation among certain people is very telling.

I don't think most people who are "bothered" are concerned by a separate location set aside to highlight the work and interests of BIPOC creators, rather the idea that such an area would be exclusionary of anyone who doesn't identify as "non-white." Sure, there are RPG, Boardgame, and CCG areas, but everyone is allowed to enter them...I can't argue that there aren't bad actors at Gen Con, but I think much of this situation stems from an ambiguously worded announcement.

I think you worded this better than I ever could. All of this, yes. 

Posted by qwaserity
#31

Recommendation: If the folks are showcasing materials, please have signs telling us where we can find these materials in the vendor's hall.

At our comic con we direct people to vendors who I know are carrying the games people play in the game room. This thought just made me realize we've never actually had a MAP... Someone plays Catan, someone loves Catan, we tell them who is selling Catan.

Have a MAP too people!!!

Posted by brumcg
#32

From Rose Gauntlet Entertainment's Twitter account:

The area is open to everyone but we ask that people are respectful to the BIPOC attendees that are trying to get work done there and give them priority to table space and demos.

Posted by lanogironu mbeauparland
#33

This is a fairly serious question, but why do people care if it's intended to be an exclusively non-white area? Are white people so important they have to be allowed every where no matter what? 

Posted by lehane lanogironu
#34

Flip the script and make it where people are trying to keep a different skin color other than White out to see the outrage and watch people consider the outrage justified. 

That aside, it seems like a silly business idea to try and showcase products and then intentionally try to exclude potential customers from the products being showcased. All money (at least for the US) is green regardless who is holding it. 

Posted by random_axcess
#35

As mentioned previously the wording of this was less than stellar mostly due to the headline, sub-head and first two sentences. The entire five paragraphs tend to wobble between regressive passive voice and authoritative outline. As an example here are the first two sentences:

"This year Gen Con, in partnership with Rose Gauntlet Entertainment, will be providing a lounge area for Black, Indigenous, and People of Color (BIPOC) professionals and attendees."

This infers that a lounge area will only be for the professionals mentioned.

"During the show, the lounge will be open to those who seek to play games, look at art, network, relax, and enjoy activities with the BIPOC community."

This tells the reader that during the show the lounge will be open for everyone to intermingle. The next four paragraphs continue to waver back and forth with the inferences on who this is for. If someone just skimmed through the announcement it is very easy to get the wrong impression one way or the other. Someone insufferable may believe they are being excluded and get mad about it. Even worse, someone with a minority background looking for a safe space to interact with other creators could walk in and find it isn't what they thought at all.

Not to mention that "BIPOC" is a very new (like 2020 new) and a very American central term with its own group racial ranking controversy. While it may not be GenCon's responsibility it could be helpful to further expound for those who are generally (or willfully) just uninformed.

As an aside BAME (Black, Asian, Minority Ethnic) is only 20ish years older and mainly used in the UK but has seen usage in the EU & US and is currently under scrutiny for having the exact opposite effect of its intention. Many see it as disparaging and UK civil service has started removing it.

With my long winded speech out of the way. I think this is a really good idea and should have been more supported. I do not know where this is located but gives the impression the "lounge" will be stuck in some small out of the way room that Rose Gauntlet Entertainment had to pay for as a "partnership".

If GenCon really wanted to shine the spotlight on minority or under represented creators, create a space in the stadium at least the area of the board game library from 2018. Offer spotlight advertisements (that are not exorbitantly priced) during the con, and instead of a "lounge" showcase these creators to everyone so that we can invest-in/support their product in an informed way.

 

Posted by mbeauparland lanogironu
#36


A fairly serious answer...

It's not about "white people being so important," it's about preventing anyone of any racial heritage from experiencing and learning about anything they wish to at Gen Con.  I wouldn't be happy if Gen Con created a special area exclusively for White Men, because it would fly in the face of the stated goal of being inclusive to all. Creating something exclusive for another group would be similarly unacceptable.

We don't build better relations by putting up fences,  we just build better fences.

Posted by lanogironu lehane
#37

lehane wrote:Flip the script and make it where people are trying to keep a different skin color other than White out to see the outrage and watch people consider the outrage justified. That aside, it seems like a silly business idea to try and showcase products and then intentionally try to exclude potential customers from the products being showcased. All money (at least for the US) is green regardless who is holding it. 

I can't take the first part of your response too seriously as it misses the point and does typical whataboutism (while also ignoring both history and demographic statistics because there is a difference between majority excluding a small minority and vice versa), as you appear to not actually have read the announcement if you think anything is being intentionally excluded. Again, it literally says during the show all attendees are welcome to visit the lounge, there is no actual exclusion.

Posted by lanogironu mbeauparland
#38

mbeauparland wrote:
A fairly serious answer...It's not about "white people being so important," it's about preventing anyone of any racial heritage from experiencing and learning about anything they wish to at Gen Con.  I wouldn't be happy if Gen Con created a special area exclusively for White Men, because it would fly in the face of the stated goal of being inclusive to all. Creating something exclusive for another group would be similarly unacceptable.
We don't build better relations by putting up fences,  we just build better fences.

Then why have tickets, why have events, why have sections for various gaming with table limits? GenCon should just let insecure people go do whatever they want wherever they want and however they want because that's what being truly inclusive is about. A badge to get in is a fence. A vaccine requirement is a fence. An event ticket to do something is a fence. The price of a game at a vendor is a fence. But those fences are okay to you, but this one fence (I'm sure the Christian event fence is A OK to you) is a problem because you think it's exclusionary when it clearly says the Lounge is open and wants to shine a spotlight on BIPOC works and creators.  

If you actually cared about better relations, then you would 
1. Have correctly read the announcement to see you are more than welcome to the lounge to support BIPOC creators 
2. You would understand the historical precedent and demographics (they'll never announce it but I bet GenCon is 85%+ white people and nearly 75% white dudes) that make a BIPOC showcase worthwhile 
3. You would either quietly support the Lounge understanding its purpose, or you'd make time to go by there and support creators that for a lot of reasons are underrepresented in the community 

Posted by lehane lanogironu
#39

lanigironu wrote:
lehane wrote:Flip the script and make it where people are trying to keep a different skin color other than White out to see the outrage and watch people consider the outrage justified. That aside, it seems like a silly business idea to try and showcase products and then intentionally try to exclude potential customers from the products being showcased. All money (at least for the US) is green regardless who is holding it. 

I can't take the first part of your response too seriously as it misses the point and does typical whataboutism (while also ignoring both history and demographic statistics because there is a difference between majority excluding a small minority and vice versa), as you appear to not actually have read the announcement if you think anything is being intentionally excluded. Again, it literally says during the show all attendees are welcome to visit the lounge, there is no actual exclusion.
It isn't whataboutism, just pointing out the hypocrisy of your question. If you literally change the skin color in your question to another you get a vastly different response, and people feeling that response is justified. It is not. No skin color is an acceptable target for exclusion.

I personally don't think anyone was being excluded. I even point out how silly the concept would be for people trying to showcase products to be sold to exclude anyone. Purposely lowering your customer pool is a bad business move regardless of what the product is. 

Posted by nedleeds quarex
#40

quarex wrote:
"This year Gen Con, in partnership with Rose Gauntlet Entertainment, will be providing a lounge area for Black, Indigenous, and People of Color (BIPOC) professionals and attendees.  Attendees will find games created by BIPOC designers, a BIPOC creators’ game library, BIPOC art, scheduled events, giveaways, refreshments and a space to meet with fellow members of the community.  Aspiring BIPOC professionals will find a space to meet other professionals, sign up for one-on-one meetings, obtain resources on companies hoping to work with and mentor BIPOC creators, etc."
Might as well close this thread now if that sounds unclear and people want to get mad about it
"If you disagree with me I'm not open to debate and you need to be censured immediately lest you convince me I'm wrong about my religion."

Posted by roderick
#41

Okay guys, you're starting to get to the Thin Ice area. 

Back it off. This is not a place to discuss racism (or any other -ism) or to take potshots at each other. 

Roderick Robertson
Gen Con Forum Moderator

Posted by whisper721 roderick
#42

roderick wrote:
Okay guys, you're starting to get to the Thin Ice area. 
Back it off. This is not a place to discuss racism (or any other -ism) or to take potshots at each other. 
Roderick Robertson
Gen Con Forum Moderator
Don't personally care about it...    but...for years all I hear is how GC is all inclusive... If you dont like that then dont go..... But now.. its some BIPOC room and you clearly have folks against it... but that doesn't matter and its now thin ice...  Isn't the core of B.I.P.O.C.  about a race?   Black Indigeonous People Of Color..  Once again  don't care... have no inkling to go... but seems a little bias to host something that is NOT all inclusive since thats what GC preaches...  JS.   All its gonna take is 1 White person to feel excluded now and BOOM... all over the internet..  live streams, pics, etc etc. lol lol

Posted by helenbb
#43

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Posted by mikeboozer helenbb
#44

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Posted by mikeboozer
#45

We will be making some clarifying statements considering the BIPOC lounge soon. We will post them here...if this topic remains open that is.

Mike

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